Origin or the outer Rib Linings/Moldings..

[Ken Smith]

I am starting this thread to explore the origin or the outer Rib Linings or Moldings as sometimes referred to.

Usually we equate this to just German School work (German/Czech border work as well) but I have seen Italian and English and American Basses with outer Linings as well. I have never seen a 'real' French Bass with Linings other than a few Basses from Hawkes that are referred to as French as well as a few others that I think were miss-attributed for value purposes. I would argue each and every one of them though as they all looked Germanic to me!

In the Germans we see it as far back as the mid 19th century if not earlier with Neuner and Hornsteiner. These were two family names that go back centuries in Mittenwald. Some of them worked individually and some as the N&H firm. Now all the Basses seen by them have these outer moldings. In the 20th century we see just about every 'Shop' Bass and imported brand label with Linings from Morelli, Pfretschner, Juzek, Hoffner etc with the outer Linings as if that is THE way to make a Bass. I wonder why none of the current hand-builders we know do this here in USA. Pollmann still does it but only in the German models. All of the Italian models are lining-free from the outside.

As far back as the late 18th century English makers have used Moldings on the Ribs as well. We have seen this with Hill, Lott/Dodd, Fendt, Furber and to some degree with Forster using square Molded Corners but not exclusively to Forster on the Corners.

The earliest Italian Bass I have seen with Linings/Moldings is one by Beretta, a Guadagnini school maker, c1770-'90. These are narrow width Linings under 1/2" wide. I have a Martini from 1919 (earliest seen example of his work) with wide flat outer linings about 3/4" width. I have seen mostly wide-flat Moldings on the English Basses but a few of the narrow form. I have seen a late (c.1908) Neuner-Horn. with wide-flat strips as well.

In talking about Bass Schools we must group the English with the rest of the British Isles as well. With the German School, add bordering Austrian and Bohemian makers. I don't think the 'inland' Bohemians, Moravians or Austrian/Viennese makers used outer Linings on the Basses and this goes for Hungary and Romania. These Schools besides being somewhat loyal to Stainer also copied the great Italian works as far as the Violin thru Cellos go. The Basses though kept the Viol/Gamba from for the most part.

Here are some examples of various Lining/Molding styles from Basses that I have or have passed thru me. Please feel free to Post your own 'Lining' pics for discussion and comparison as well.

Here are a few Germans, 19th, and 20st Century;



Here's an old Kay that we are so familiar with;


And here's my Martini with wide flat outer Linings/Moldings that have been used by the English as well as a an occasional Italian;


So, show your outer Lining/Molding Pics if you got em..

By the way, besides extra gluing surface area for the Top and Back plates, what other advantages do you see these Linings may have? Stiffening up the Ribs? Will that cause the Top to crack more when the Back shrinks each Winter? Does it help the Tone of the Bass? Does it make the Bass deeper or brighter sounding or is it mostly just decoration? Luthiers? Please share your insights and experience here..

[Eric Hochberg]

Funny you should post this today, as I just looked at this bass and thought its outer linings and plate tuning gears inconsistent with the French attribution.

http://www.uptonbass.com/mid-ninetee...-upright-bass/

What do you think?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

Funny you should post this today, as I just looked at this bass and thought its outer linings and plate tuning gears inconsistent with the French attribution.

http://www.uptonbass.com/mid-ninetee...-upright-bass/

What do you think?

These are some of the kinds of Basses we see mis-marketed as French because of the Shoulders and Purfling going around. These features as well as on the bigger Orchestra Basses like my first pic shown made in Germany were done to look less typical than the commercial Shop Basses that were exported to USA in great numbers in the early-mid 20th century.

The Gears are German for one but possibly not original. The age is less that advertised in my opinion and the Origin is German as well. If French, then who made it? What Shop? I think this is closer to 1900 or slightly after. That roundback is Germanic in its arching as well. I have seen a few of this style Bass marketed as French before which I think is incorrect. Don't get me wrong here on the quality. They are nicely made. Just not in France or in the mid 19th century.

About 5 years ago after joining an Orchestra I turn around to look at the Bass behind me and asked "is that a French Bass?".. The Reply; "no, it's German." .. It looks a bit similar to the one you referenced but did not have the outer Linings at all. It actually had a German label from 1903. I would have guessed 1860-1880 by its looks and French origin as well. Early 20th century makers like Alfred Meyer made French looking sloped shouldered Basses but in Germany. The molding strip across the Neck area is typical German and seen in Mittenwald Basses as well as from some shops further north.

Ok, back on topic..

[Craig Regan]

I had enough trouble doing the inside linings!

For the inexperienced luthier (me), outside linings could spell trouble. Lots of potential for possible mistakes; open seams, unevenness, poor fit, etc, etc.

It makes you appreciate the skill level in the old basses.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

No matter who started it, it's a bad idea.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

No matter who started it, it's a bad idea.

Now that you said that, PLEASE tell us why!

[Martin Sheridan]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

No matter who started it, it's a bad idea.

Arnold, I'm in total agreement. They are not only unnecessary, they're ugly to boot.

I'd be suspicious of the origin of any 'Italian' bass with outside linings.

(edit). But then I'm automatically suspicious of any bass called Italian.