Origin or the outer Rib Linings/Moldings..

[Arnold Schnitzer]

No matter who started it, it's a bad idea.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

No matter who started it, it's a bad idea.

Now that you said that, PLEASE tell us why!

[Arnold Schnitzer]

1) Glue joint too wide; prevents seams opening, therefore more cracks.
2) Glue joint too wide, prevents de-coupling of the vibrating plates, therefore less sound.
3) Interior dimension is less (if the outside linings were not there, the corpus could be subsequently larger within the same plate size), therefore less depth of tone.
4) Looks wrong (no other member of the violin family has them).
5) When they come loose, buzzes occur.

But I think they are a good thing to have on psychobilly players' basses...

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

1) Glue joint too wide; prevents seams opening, therefore more cracks.
2) Glue joint too wide, prevents de-coupling of the vibrating plates, therefore less sound.
3) Interior dimension is less (if the outside linings were not there, the corpus could be subsequently larger within the same plate size), therefore less depth of tone.
4) Looks wrong (no other member of the violin family has them).
5) When they come loose, buzzes occur.

But I think they are a good thing to have on psychobilly players' basses...

Well,

#1 makes sense.
#2 is understandable as this stiffens up the Bass.
#3 to me is the most obvious but most often not recognized. The same outer lip dimensions of the Top exposed with the Linings in place mean the Ribs themselves are that much further into the Plates therby reducing the internal air space of the 'sound-box'.
#4 is not a complete answer as no other member of the current family of 4 (excluding the Viols) has the Gamba Form in use or the angled Back bend we see on so many Basses. The Bass is the only one of the 4 that does not actually have a standard shape or design like the Violin, Viola or Cello has and has had for over 400 years. So, why not the Linings which may have been introduced to slow down 'twist' of the wider Rib depth used on Basses.

It is true that many of the old Italian Basses including Maggini and d'Salo have Rib depths approaching 9" but were made without the outer Moldings.

So, in this case, what is the oldest Bass you (anyone reading this) have seen with these outer moldings/Linings on the Ribs?

#5 is something I have never seen but then again, I am 'not' the person calls when they might come loose. I just haven't seen this happen, ever!

So, 2 questions remaining in my mind here;

1) What is the oldest example known of outer Linings/Molding on Bass Ribs.. and
2) What do you think the reasoning was behind this idea originally.

Arnold, tell them about the construction of the Ribs on my Cornerless Bass. Talk about something different entirely and the sound is something that's hard to come close to.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Well,

2) What do you think the reasoning was behind this idea originally.

Maker #1 "I haff a goot ideah".

Maker #2 "Vaht?"

Maker #1 "Vee add linings on zee outside, too. Zen zee seams vill stay closed no mattah vaht!"

Maker #2 "You vill be known forever as genius!"

[Walt Jones]

Can you use the lack of moldings as a clue to the age of a bass?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Walt Jones

Can you use the lack of moldings as a clue to the age of a bass?

I think the Moldings started about 200 years ago or so. I have seen a few English Basses supposedly from the late 18th century and one Italian Bass with them. If their dates are correct then they precede the Germans. I haven't seen many German Basses with Moldings from before 1800 but then again, their Basses are rarely dated inside.

Basses from 400 years ago didn't have them and Chinese Basses made tomorrow don't either.

I don't think Moldings account for much when dating a Bass. I have seen one old German Bass where the Moldings looked to be added after the Bass was made.

The Germans I believe are the ones that have used outer Moldings most uniformly for the past 120 years or so. Prior to that, the usage of Moldings in Germanic Basses or lack of Moldings were kind of mixed as were the methods of making from Shops, to Factories to Individuals.

If it's a German 'thing' by nature as far as inception goes then maybe it was robust durability that they were after. One thing that can be said about German engineering overall is; 'they build them strong'. Basses, Doors, Tanks.. you get the picture..

Strong doesn't always equate to 'good' especially where sound is concerned.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

Maker #1 "I haff a goot ideah".

Maker #2 "Vaht?"

Maker #1 "Vee add linings on zee outside, too. Zen zee seams vill stay closed no mattah vaht!"

Maker #2 "You vill be known forever as genius!"

Whatsamatta you??

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

1) Glue joint too wide; prevents seams opening, therefore more cracks.
2) Glue joint too wide, prevents de-coupling of the vibrating plates, therefore less sound.
3) Interior dimension is less (if the outside linings were not there, the corpus could be subsequently larger within the same plate size), therefore less depth of tone.
4) Looks wrong (no other member of the violin family has them).
5) When they come loose, buzzes occur.

But I think they are a good thing to have on psychobilly players' basses...

So, would you advocate removing them from non pedigree basses? Or are they designed to work in tandem with the inside linings?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

So, would you advocate removing them from non pedigree basses? Or are they designed to work in tandem with the inside linings?

I've seen a bass or two where they were removed. The overhangs were thus kind of wide. Also, there's a cosmetic issue to deal with. I have often reduced the inside linings to a fraction of their original thickness, which helps things some.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

So, would you advocate removing them from non pedigree basses? Or are they designed to work in tandem with the inside linings?

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

I've seen a bass or two where they were removed. The overhangs were thus kind of wide. Also, there's a cosmetic issue to deal with. I have often reduced the inside linings to a fraction of their original thickness, which helps things some.

First off, removing them might present a finish touch-up challenge. If it improves the Bass, then who cares unless it is a high grade type Pedigree.

Here is one example where it could help. I saw an old German Bass one day where the Top and Back were either flush with the Ribs in places (no lip showing) or less than flush from shrinkage. If the Moldings were removed here, it would save some work shortening the Ribs at the Blocks or widening the Pates at the center joint which is also another remedy but way more costly. Still, touch-up would be a big job.

The sound might be improved as well which would easily off-set any value argument in my opinion from the alteration if it was an improvement.

My Martini shown above has wide flat outer Moldings and when it was last opened for some repairs I believe Arnold did trim the inside Linings a bit. That Bass sounds better every time I play it.

I saw one French Bass where the inner Linings were 2x as thick and 2x as wide as needed, maybe more. That is at least 4x the mass. They were reduced I believe when the Bass was restored and some improvement was noticed. Will all the other work performed, it's hard to say exactly what did what.

[Martin Sheridan]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

No matter who started it, it's a bad idea.

Arnold, I'm in total agreement. They are not only unnecessary, they're ugly to boot.

I'd be suspicious of the origin of any 'Italian' bass with outside linings.

(edit). But then I'm automatically suspicious of any bass called Italian.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

Arnold, I'm in total agreement. They are not only unnecessary, they're ugly to boot.

I'd be suspicious of the origin of any 'Italian' bass with outside linings.

(edit). But then I'm automatically suspicious of any bass called Italian.

On the Italian thing, your first suspicion can rest. Italians DID make Basses with outer Moldings. I have seen both 19th and 20th century Basses with them, CONFIRMED Italian Pedigrees. As a matter of fact most of the early Martini Basses have them. I have personally seen 3 older ones and one of his last. Two had them from the oldies and one each old and later did not.

Again, if this is a German trait, then let me say this. There are many German Basses that are build with German features like Dovetail Neck joints for instance beside the Molding issue. Two of my Basses have their original Neck Blocks, the Martini and the Candi. In both cases it was discovered that when the Back or Top was taken off (Top of the Martini and Back of the Candi) for repairs it was realized that they had 'hidden' Dovetail joints. The Top and Back plates covering the Joint, and very neatly as well.

On your second point, you are smart to be suspicious with the Italian naming. It is done 100 fold on the Violins so it's just trickled down to the Basses. I have seen what could be Shop Basses made in either Germany or France (I have seen 2 of each) where the Bass either looks 100% like an old German Shop Bass or a French Mirecourt Bass (Jacquet/Claudot style) but have Italian Labels.

I have played one of each and they didn't sound typical Italian to me so I think my guess was correct. On both cases, the Bass did look like it had extra care given on the wood and/or varnish so it's not out of the question that the shop bought the Bass from wherever and completed and Labeled it as well.

On the other hand, we see so many wannabes coming out of Romania and Hungry these days with Italian styling Labeled or not.

I once asked a very fine Bass player (who is no longer with us) about the way to tell if a Bass was Italian or not, this being asked when I first got my Old Italian Bass back in 1973 before actually making the deal to buy it. His answer was "when you play it, you can see the Pasta coming out of the F-Holes".. There was so much Pasta coming from that Bass, I needed not one or two but several 'dogie bags'..

Well, if that's the case, then who needs to get appraisals anymore?.. lol..

I have had several fine sounding non-Italian Basses that could pass for the 'Pasta School' if one was blind folded while listening or being fed. Still, there are the 'Value' differences we must be aware of as far as good playing/sounding Basses vs. investment grade Basses which usually have the sound as well.

[Martin Sheridan]

There are "Italian" violin family instruments from the 19th and 20th centuries that originated in Germany, and today there are a fair number of "Italian" violins that originally came from China.

Not all Italian instruments have the "Italian" sound.

Much of Italian workmanship is not very good.

The work that came out of Italy between 1550 and 1750 bares almost no resemblance to 19th and 20th century work.

19th and 20th century American made violin family instruments have been and probably still are being sold to Europe where they get relabled as Italian.

Nearly any skilled workman can imitate the work of another worker from another country.

If it looks like pasta and tastes like pasta, it's probably pasta (but maybe not).

Just some observations.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

There are "Italian" violin family instruments from the 19th and 20th centuries that originated in Germany, and today there are a fair number of "Italian" violins that originally came from China.

Not all Italian instruments have the "Italian" sound.

Much of Italian workmanship is not very good.

The work that came out of Italy between 1550 and 1750 bares almost no resemblance to 19th and 20th century work.

19th and 20th century American made violin family instruments have been and probably still are being sold to Europe where they get relabled as Italian.

Nearly any skilled workman can imitate the work of another worker from another country.

If it looks like pasta and tastes like pasta, it's probably pasta (but maybe not).

Just some observations.

OK, BUT there ARE Italian Basses with outer moldings and dovetail joints. This is without a doubt. Italian labels fall into many many instruments that are not Italian. Some of them are actually Italian.

Martin, is there really a place called Italy? Just checking..

I have owned many Italian Basses. Only about half of them were properly labeled or labeled at all. These were all 20th century Basses. In 100-200 years from now someone will put my Martini label in a Juzek/Wilfer and sell it as Italian. Mark my words.. I have had almost as many come thru here labeled or claiming to be Italian that were not so I have personally experienced it both ways.

Martin, you are welcome to come over and inspect my Basses.

[Matthew Tucker]

Arnold, have you ever come across with a bass with ONLY outside linings? I would have thought that his scenario would maintain the thinner glue surface, increase the vibrating plate thickness and protect the overhang slightly. So why is this not common?

I have a Meinel bass where the outside lining is basically a thin 1/4 round molding right up to the edge of the overhang. For a student bass, this really protects the edge well. Looks pretty crap though. I think I'll remove it when I restore the bass.